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Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
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Posted - 2009.08.22 22:20:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
A T2 BPO owner if the price tanks has only 2 options: - continue to build a the items at reduced returns until the market recover (and him selling a low price will make that requiring more time); - shelve the BPO (with complete loss of production) and produce some invented item with better returns than his BPO. And shelving the BPO mean that you have several billions doing nothing.
And the problem is what exactly - that the BPO owner bought into a bad investment? I hardly think that is a good arguement for not boosting invention, just an attempt at protectionism. ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.22 22:26:00 -
[2]
There are a variety of other possible ways to boost invention:
Change base ME/PE to 0/0.
Change base invention BPC runs. for example:
Ships - BS:2 BC:2 CR:5 DD:5 FR:5 Modules - 15 Ammo - 15 Rigs - 5
Change decryptors so they have a bigger effect on ME/PE and no effect on runs (if you also change runs as above) for example:
Probability Multiplier/ME modifier/PE modifier
0.8/+20/+15 1.2/+10/+10 1.6/+5/+5 2.0/+0/+0
Increase invention research time to balance if needed.
----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 06:55:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Aias Telemonias EDIT: after some more reflection and pondering, I am less sure of my original stance because it seems as though, really, inventors do have some very crucial advantages over BPO owners; namely the flexibility and possibly the rate of production.
You forget, and it is something most people seem to forget to take on board (especially the pro-bpo lobby on the forums ) that any half decent industrialist with a T2 bpo is an inventor aswell... ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.28 20:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
And on those slots play exactly by the same rules than any other inventor.
The big differences are 2:
- invention require a much lower initial investment but has higher activity costs;
- the owner can't change what the BPO produce so if the market change he will still produce that item or lose the revenue from the investment, the inventor will shift production and still use most of his investment.
Both are mixed blessing. You can spend a lot at the start and then gain more, but at the risk of a shift in the market depressing your investment or you can spend less and gain less, but keeping a better opportunity to adapt to changing situations.
If both player start with the same sum the one choosing the BPO route will do less work but will have 1 item, the one choosing then inventor path could easily use the isk required to buy 1 T2 BPO to buy several invention alts and invent a lot of stuff, but that will require a lot of in game time spent managing the different characters.
Maybe for someone new to T2 BPOs, but if you are buying now, then you are probably too rich for it to matter tbh - a 5 year (or more) return is utterly silly imo.
Your points are moot, and not relevant to the issues raised here, the vast majority of ship T2 BPOs have been in their owners hands for quite some time - the large scale investments you speak are a distraction to the actual problem, namely that existing ship T2 bpo owners command 56% of the market, way in excess of anything we had been led to believe by CCP (or indeed the bpo owners themselves )
Some players got in excess of 10 T2 bpos from the lottery, and additionally those players with good T2 bpos made such a huge fortune (far in excess of anything else in game at that time) they could afford to buy up more T2 bpos (at a [for the time] good price) and are now sitting on wealth only 0.0 alliances can hope for (moons) ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 07:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: SXYGeeK
stuff
NOT RELEVANT!!
T2 BPOs were originally given out free (effectively), their 'value' has no bearing on this arguement.
T2 BPOs are base ME/PE 0/0, and are researchable, they allow those builing with them an unfair advantage over inventors - default cost and effort (invention process, increased material cost etc - a BPO requires none of this). ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 07:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 29/08/2009 00:58:08
Originally by: SXYGeeK the OP's suggestion would not increase the profitability of invention, It would perhaps net a reduction in the cost of T2 items as they would require slightly less resources. this is evidenced by the fact that there are plenty of T2 modules for which there exist no BPO's (items added after the conversion from lottery to invention) and invention on these modules does not yield more profitability than those modules that do have BPOs.
Exactly this.
Some players think that datacores are 'free'. Some players are just outright stupid. This should never be forgotten, nor underestimated.
The prices are dictated by competing inventors. The only difference between invention and T2 BPOs is that T2 BPO owners can still make decent profit at the prices which are driven down by inventors undercutting each other..
Rather proves the point that BPO owners have an unfair advantage, thanks ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 13:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Originally by: SXYGeeK
stuff
NOT RELEVANT!!
T2 BPOs were originally given out free (effectively), their 'value' has no bearing on this arguement.
Pleas, this is the stupidest argument you can use.
They were not free.
- They required an investment of several millions SP in the relevant skills (and I can assure you that having 3 millions of SP locked in science skills in a character with 6 millions SP impact on everything you do);
- they required the standing with the relevant R&D corporations, so running missions for them instead of other more immediately rewarding corporations;
- they required RP. Points that you can now trade for datacores;
- tho get more RP you had to do missions and till late 2006 those missions weren't "give my tritanium" or "move this packet with a shuttle", they were "get me 1.000 holoreels", "get me enriched uranium", "move those 8.000 m3 of containers to station x", or the never done as the scientists were sold at 900K for units "get me 20 science graduates".
You can say it was low maintenance work after getting the initial standing and skills, but you still ad to keep the account active paying the sub as the mail offering the BPO had a expiration date and losing a interesting BPO because your account was not subbed and you weren't there to read it would have been a hard blow.
They weren't never "free" unless you are one of the guys that think that the minerals you get mining are "free" or the isk you get doing a mission are "free".
Tosh, they WERE effectively free, I have 4 research characters, all with good standings for R&D agents and skills, the effort was minimal, the reward (lottery) was totally out of proportion (for the better BPOS) ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 13:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: SXYGeeK this is evidenced by the fact that there are plenty of T2 modules for which there exist no BPO's (items added after the conversion from lottery to invention) and invention on these modules does not yield more profitability than those modules that do have BPOs.
Exactly this. The only difference between invention and T2 BPOs is that T2 BPO owners can still make decent profit at the prices which are driven down by inventors undercutting each other..
Rather proves the point that BPO owners have an unfair advantage, thanks
They have an advantage, yes. Unfair? What do you define as fair? Many BPO-holders worked hard for their BPOs. So what? Hard work shouldn't be rewarded? Try to make of it what you want, but the only thing it proves is that this thread was made out of pure envy, nothing else.
A player with 40m SP has an advantage over a 2m SP player. A player with lots of friends has an advantage over someone who doesn't. Next we see a thread about jobless players having an unfair advantage. Or rich players..
The prices are dictated by inventors, not BPO-holders. Nothing would change for the better for inventors. So why get rid of T2 BPOs? To get rid of the envy? Sorry, but that doesn't cut it.
Try to improve the game instead of pursuing your own agenda.
Very many people did very little work to get their T2 BPOs.
Fair - get rid of the inbuilt advantage (ME/PE) built into the invention vs BPO equation, if idiots want to regard their minerals and datacores as valueless, that is their issue, deal with it.
With changes to invention - mainly ME/PE then there is no reason to get rid of T2 BPOs.
Comparitive player sp? wtf you on about, primitive derail attempt I presume.. ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 14:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Donatien de'Sade
Try to improve the game without pursuing your own agenda
Hypocrisy much? I paid for t2 BPOs yet you want to remove them from game because YOU dont have them.
Where did I say I wanted to remove them?
When did you buy them, how much for, did you have any previously, which ones? do I care?, nope, you have no valid arguement to bring to the table..
Pot kettle black right back at you...
----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
Donatien de'Sade
Ars Notoria
|
Posted - 2009.08.29 15:44:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Donatien de''Sade on 29/08/2009 15:51:31
Originally by: Deva Blackfire stuff
No, the profit from the BPO does NOT need to take into account the cost of aquiring said BPO, that is my point, the relative value given the BPO is arbitary, not relevant to the arguement.
CCP wanted to move away from T2 BPOs, they brought on invention, in module invention T2 BPOs have been marginalised, it was generally thought that the same was true for ships, this has been proven not to be true, because of the big (and it is) advantage of reduced costs from production.
Examples:
Jaguar: BPO(0/0) vs BPC(-4/-4)
Deflection Shield Emitter x44 x60 Electrolytic Capacitor Unit x33 x45 Fernite Carbide Armour Plate x44 x60 Ladar Sensor Cluster x22 x30 Nanomechanical Microporcessor x22 x30 Nuclear Reactor Unit x44 x60 Plasma Thruster x33 x45
10 MN MWD:(makes do difference from 0/0 to -4/-4)
Antimatter Reactor Unit x5 Ion Thruster x10 Plasma Thruster x32
I would like to see T2 ship production working (in terms of cost) in a similar way to T2 module production. ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move |
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